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Like many younger individuals, Zach Latta went to a college that did not educate any computer lessons. However that didn’t cease him from studying everything he might about them and becoming a programmer at a young age. After moving to San Francisco, Zach founded Hack Membership, a nonprofit community of highschool coding clubs world wide, to help other college students discover the training and neighborhood that he wished he had as a teenager.
This week on our podcast, we discuss to Zach concerning the importance of scholar access to an open web, why learning to code can enhance fairness, and the way school's on-line security and the law usually stand in the best way. We’ll additionally discuss how laptop education may also help create the following era of makers and builders that we need to unravel a few of society’s largest issues.
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You can also find the MP3 of this episode on the web Archive.
On this episode, you’ll learn about:
Why colleges block some harmless educational content and coding resources, from frequent websites like Github to “view source” functions on college-issued units
How locked down digital methods in schools stop younger folks from learning about coding and computer systems, and create equity issues for college students who are already marginalized
How coding and “hack” clubs can empower young people, help them be taught self-expression, and find neighborhood
How pervasive school surveillance undermines belief and limits people’s capacity to train their rights when they're older
How younger people’s curiosity for a way things work online has helped convey us a few of the technology we love most
Zach Latta is the govt director of Hack Club, a national nonprofit connecting over 14,000 young folks to help them create and take part in coding clubs, hackathons, and workshops all over the world. He's a Forbes 30 Beneath 30 recipient and a Thiel Fellow.
Music for the way to repair the Internet was created for us by Reed Mathis and Nat Keefe of BeatMower.
This podcast is licensed Creative Commons Attribution 4.0 Worldwide, and includes the next music licensed Inventive Commons Attribution 3.Zero Unported by their creators:
- Warm Vacuum Tube by Admiral Bob (c) copyright 2019 Licensed below a Inventive Commons Attribution (3.0) license. http://dig.ccmixter.org/recordsdata/admiralbob77/59533 Ft: starfrosch
- Drops of H2O ( The Filtered Water Treatment ) by J.Lang (c) copyright 2012 Licensed beneath a Inventive Commons Attribution (3.0) license. http://dig.ccmixter.org/information/djlang59/37792 Ft: Airtone
- reCreation by airtone (c) copyright 2019 Licensed underneath a Artistic Commons Attribution (3.0) license. http://dig.ccmixter.org/files/airtone/59721
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Zach: I grew up close to Los Angeles, each my parents had been social workers and growing up, I went to public faculties that most schools in America didn't train any pc lessons. And for me, as a younger particular person, I just felt like, oh my God, if solely I may figure out how these magical gadgets work, this is where the secrets of the universe lie. But it was always a solitary activity for me.
As a teenager I used to be very lonely and that culminated for me, I ended up dropping out of highschool after my freshman yr when I was sixteen and that i moved to San Francisco to change into a programmer. And after working at a couple startups to get some cash and put together some financial savings, I started Hack Club to try and create the kind of place and group that I so desperately wished I had when I used to be a teenager.
Cindy: That's Zach Latta. He's the founder of Hack Membership and he's our visitor at this time. Zach goes to tell us about how teams like Hack Club are instructing kids tips on how to hack and in any other case be creators online and the way that's one of many methods we may also help shift them from being simply passive shoppers of the digital world to really charting their very own futures.
Danny: We're going to speak to Zach about scholar rights to an open web, why studying to code can improve fairness and what occurs when a school's online safety and the law get in the way of all that.
Cindy: I am Cindy Cohn, EFF's govt director.
Danny: And I'm Danny O'Brien, particular advisor to the EFF. Welcome to How to fix the Internet, a podcast of the Electronic Frontier Foundation, where we bring you huge ideas, options, and hope that we can repair the most important problems we face on-line.
Cindy: Zach, thanks a lot for joining us.
Zach: Effectively, thank you so much for having me. I am so honored. Rising up as a teenager, I just liked the EFF and every thing the group stood for. It's an actual honor to be with all of you right here immediately.
Cindy: Oh, terrific.
You reached out to EFF for assist and that is how we ended up really meeting you. Can you talk to us about what led you to do this?
Zach: We are a network of teenagers all across the world who love constructing things with computers and run communities to attempt and produce teenagers together, to make issues with technology. And almost every month, we now have a major downside where a faculty district simply blocks Hack Membership. And there isn't a worse call to get from a Hack Club, they're saying, "All proper, I bought 20 folks within the room, we're making an attempt to get started, hackclub.com is blocked, github.com is blocked, Stack Overflow is blocked, how can we presumably run our assembly from here?"
Because of this problem, kind of in a bit of frustration. With some Hack Clubbers I wrote a letter to EFF support line, just saying, "Hey, is there any means that EFF might be able to assist us with this? As a result of that is starting to be a factor the place it isn't like one college has this downside, it is like we've got dozens of schools around America the place simply the whole lot's blocked."
Danny: Just to be clear right here, this is not simply you being blocked, this is main informational resources, right?
Zach: Oh yeah. It is loopy. If you're a young person who needs to learn about computers and desires to learn to code, you form of need the internet to do that. And also you rely on sites like Google, like GitHub, like Stack Overflow, like GitLab. There's an entire ecosystem that every single skilled developer relies on each single day and at a big percentage of schools round America, all of these resources are simply blocked, together with hackclub.com.
We run a club domestically right here in Vermont, where we check out all of our stuff before we put it online and open source it. And I used to be talking with a Hack Clubber there where literally each single website moreover faculty classroom is blocked on their faculty laptop. And this Hack Clubber isn't from a family with means so the only pc that they've entry to at home is their college issued Chromebook. And in consequence, he is six weeks behind everybody else in this club and still hasn't gotten previous the preliminary hurdle of building early web sites.
Danny: Obviously what you are doing in Hack Club must be extraordinarily subversive to be blocked in this manner. What are you doing? What are these youngsters studying or failing to study as a result of they cannot really access to the internet?
Cindy: Their incentive is just to make sure that children do not ever get to something which may presumably be problematic. They don't have an incentive to make sure youngsters can truly be taught a few of these expertise. And so, whenever you outsource this to people whose business it is to dam, they're going to dam versus having a thoughtful process by which you figure out what do college students really have to study? And I feel you are completely proper, when it comes to laptop programming and understanding how computers work, everyone realized this by going out onto the web and discovering the locations the place different individuals are sharing this and one thing like GitHub, a huge proportion of what truly runs the internet is there. It is somewhat loopy
Danny: When we educate people to learn and write, we're not expecting them to be English literature college students or novelists. We're giving them the instruments to work in society. When we've studying, writing and algorithms or whatever, it's so that they will do what they want to do in society and they'll build society with an understanding of the things around them.
Zach: While you realize that the world round us is constructed by other human beings, you realize you may very well be one of those human beings. I feel that starting 10 years in the past, there was this huge shift in schooling that happened. And for some reason still isn't actually a part of the dialogue round what good classrooms or good learning environments seems to be like, which is that every single young person on the planet started having these magical gadgets of their pockets, which had all of human history and data on them. This stuff are better than the Library of Alexandria. That is it. It doesn't get higher. And I think that a lot of public training methods around the globe are designed to unravel entry issues. How do we just simply get entry to knowledge in entrance of everybody and to them?: And we have constructed this unbelievable distribution mechanism. It's actually outstanding but I feel the brand new challenge of studying within the 21st century is one in all motivation. How can we get people to care? How can we get folks to use this? And I believe that when we lock down digital methods around younger people, we sort of inform them, "Do not poke and prod, do not strive things, do not exit of your approach to go down a path that we have not pre-accepted for you." And I feel that that kind of kills curiosity. It is really counterproductive.
Danny: How much do you think of this is because you're known as Hack Club? How a lot do you think is as a result of individuals associate that with malicious hacking?
Zach: I believe it is perhaps a small factor. Even though I believe Hack Membership as a company is a bit of subversive in nature. We work straight with teenagers. We function type of exterior of the system, in some regards. The schools that Hack Clubs are in, often the college loves Hack Club as a result of it's teenagers at their school who're getting together in a manner that means that they are actually engaged of their learning. And we're one in all a whole lot of teams that run into these problems each single day. And I believe this idea of scholars' rights, notably on the web, because it is so new, it's so technical, only for some cause is not talked about at all, even though it affects young folks greater than virtually some other choice made at their school.
Cindy: We have been talking a lot about blocking entry to info, blocking web sites and issues like that but I believe that you have seen problems with the devices themselves, haven't you?
Zach: Yeah. More and more Hack Clubbers, the one device they have access to either in meetings or at home is a faculty issued Chromebook. And one of the options on college issued Chromebooks is to disable right clicking and clicking inspect element. And also you cannot learn how to program web sites without being in a position to try this. And this is such an actual problem that we've had to build our personal debugger to help with that.
Danny: Simply to be clear right here, while you say right click, that is the factor where you've the second mouse button and then folks always stumble on this by accident and wonder what the heck have I finished? Since you click on and then there's a little menu. It's for coders or for somebody who needs to kind of go a bit deeper or of course save an image. It is the sort of metaphor for, okay, let's go a bit of bit deeper into what we're looking at here. And that doesn’t… youngsters can't try this on these lockdown computer systems?
Zach: Yeah. It's a gadget safety setting. You'll be able to turn off inspecting component, which signifies that younger people in Hack Club meetings who haven't got a college issued pc can view the source code of any website that they go to. And if you do not have the sources at home to have one and you solely the varsity issued pc, you simply cannot.
Danny: All people within the early internet discovered how to construct the remainder of the early net by view source. There was a little pull down menu.
Danny: And should you saw a web page that you simply favored, you would look at the original HTML after which reduce and paste it and mess round with it. And you are saying that youngsters just must take what they've given now?
Zach: You just right click on and it is not an option.
Danny: Holy cow.
Cindy: And this can be a setting. Chromebooks do not come like this necessarily however they provide the administrators the power to lock youngsters out of this knowledge. It's simply, it's hard to think about the pondering that leads you to decide that we're going to deny children information in class.
Danny: And simply me and Zach and Cindy and now are vibrating within the studio. You cannot actually see this. One of the issues so upsetting about that is that the environment, the mouse, the windowing setting that you're utilizing was specifically constructed to be an academic environment that you might discover and study. It's an absolute perversion of the very basic method these things have been developed and supposed to use. It's like if you gave somebody a painting set however no paints.
Cindy: The fairness points listed here are just tremendous. As a result of we know that one in every of the good things is that we're now giving children devices that they'll use to help themselves study. However if they're locked down units and that is the wealthy kids have another device that they'll use but the poor youngsters find yourself with just a lockdown machine, a poor device for poor individuals really it appears like.
Zach: Whenever you look on the advertising for some of these college filter corporations, the advertising and marketing is like, we prevent pupil suicide. And it's, we prevent college shootings. What a wierd connection to draw. And then the issues they do to be able to attract that connection is just not solely do they filter what web sites you are in a position to go to but they really scan every single e-mail you send out of your school account, every single IM that you send out of your college account, they scan the belongings you do on websites. For this one district that we're in, in Georgia, when you go to a website that's blocked, not solely does it say, "This webpage's blocked, you're not allowed to come back right here," but it actually says that there is a security subject along with your pc and that the best way fix it's to download this intermediate SSL certificate, set up it in your computer, set as a trusted source and what that means is it permits the school to man in the center your entire encrypted traffic.
Danny: Right. That's like your undermining the safety of that pc. And I believe this is absolutely essential to emphasise. One of the things that we always discuss at EFF is you can't do censorship without surveillance. You have to be able to see what persons are taking a look at to dam it. And what that means for these type of methods is, as you say, just to be clear, what that individual is being asked to download there's the grasp key to all of their communications on that laptop, from their financial particulars to every part.
Cindy: Sure. And it is an issue that predates COVID nevertheless it actually received supercharged throughout COVID, this idea that fixed surveillance is what it's important to tolerate if you are a student. And that is dangerous first as a result of that is harmful for kids but it is also harmful as a result of we're creating a era of children who assume that being watched on a regular basis is okay. This can be a elementary human proper. It's central to human dignity. And one of the issues that we've discovered is you cannot deny kids utterly human dignity after which anticipate them to suddenly at age 18, have the ability to exercise their full rights in a approach that will work. It does not work that manner.
Danny: “How to fix the Internet” is supported by The Alfred P. Sloan Foundation’s Program in Public Understanding of Science. Enriching people’s lives by a keener appreciation of our more and more technological world and portraying the advanced humanity of scientists, engineers, and mathematicians.
How do the kids themselves really feel about this? What do you get from them?
Zach: Nicely, there's two things I'd like to contact on there. I think an concept that I might love for us all to begin speaking about is this idea of digital civic responsibility. And I feel it is the same factor the place you not solely receive being a consumer but you give too. You make your own websites, you modify the internet, you modify expertise. You're not only a shopper, you're a creator too.
When it comes to what Hack Clubbers feel about school surveillance. Hack Clubbers feel like they live in an Orwellian surveillance state since you spend your time on networks which are surveilled, the place for those who try to poke prod, unhealthy things may occur. And I believe positively Hack Clubbers really feel like they can't work together with their school on points like these because I feel a lot of faculty administrators should not technical sufficient to grasp what's going on. If you flag the wrong factor, you possibly can very simply end up facing disciplinary action or one thing like that. I had this occur when I used to be a teenager, I installed a VPN on my laptop, what I brought to my faculty, I was the only particular person at my college that I knew on a laptop and I was pulled aside by the vice principal because they have been like, "Why are you hacking our faculty?"
Danny: And I believe it undermines trust. To begin with, you set the stakes. That the administration is kind of claiming, "We don't really trust you so we're going to put this software program." However then when youngsters who're curious and involved on this look into it, they realize that they are additionally being lied to.
Zach: And I feel it actually undermines these values that we discuss quite a bit about, like curiosity, like tinkering, like making an attempt things out, determining who you want to be by way of making an attempt to make things. When there's a consequence to those actions, which is the case when you've your internet exercise filtered and then mechanically reported in some instances, it implies that suddenly making an attempt to learn there may very well be a consequence should you Google the incorrect factor. And I believe that in a place where we care rather a lot about independence and where we care lots about serving to individuals grow to be their own particular person brokers of change, I believe that our digital environments that we create for younger individuals inside of faculties, I believe sort of does the alternative. It tells you, "No, you are a consumer, keep watching Netflix, do not mess with your laptop."
Cindy: I believe this really hearkens back to the start of the Digital Frontier Basis, where we had regulation enforcement coming in and doing raids on lots of children who had been poking around on the early internet, making an attempt to figure out how things work. This is really one of many founding stories of EFF. And the flip facet of it is a few of those same kids or children who were associates with them, by the name of maybe Wozniak or other things, they went on to develop a few of the tools and the issues that we love essentially the most. We're not just doing one thing unfair to these children, we could also be brief circuiting the following era of people who find themselves going to convey us a greater world.
Cindy: Let's talk about a few of Hack Membership's successes. And by the way in which, I simply want to give you extra love for reclaiming the time period hack for doing something good. That is being a hacker, again, I am an old style internet individual, being a hacker was being anyone who dug in deeply, tried to figure issues out. And it might need been not the prettiest thing but actually made issues work. And I feel that someway we've misplaced that sense of the word and it's develop into synonymous with evil. And so I really appreciate you reclaiming it and lifting it up however that is just my little soapbox second. However let's hear some success stories. What is Hack Club doing for teenagers? What are you seeing?
Zach: Oh, it is unimaginable. I don't know. There is a Hack Clubbers who wrote an entire sport engine in Rust. I used to be talking with Hack Clubbers who built an entire clone of Minecraft in Rust the place they made the OpenGL calls themselves. But the factor that I believe is de facto essential about Hack Club for people who find themselves in it past simply the coding and beyond the socialization is I think that for Hack Clubbers, coding isn't only a strategy to make video games or make a private website or I do not know, get a job in the future. It is a type of self expression. It's this is a place the place I will be myself, where I can get what's in my head out on paper. It's a thing that provides you energy and an company as a young particular person that you do not actually find in school and don't actually discover in different actions or around your life. And it is a place where it would not really matter where you are from or what you appear like or who your dad and mom are, how a lot cash you make. It is that is a place the place folks will deal with you like an actual person with real respect. And I do know for me, when I was a younger particular person, I used to be actually determined for that.
Danny: As you talked about this, I used to be pondering concerning the early days of the web and the internet. And that i suddenly thought to myself, it isn't just Hack Membership, it is not simply these places the place youngsters collect, I think a huge chunk of the optimistic sides of the web were constructed by youngsters or built by teenagers. I consider Aaron Swartz, who very close to EFF. Me and Cindy knew him well.
Zach: Wow. He is a personal hero of mine
Danny: Proper. And after we first met Aaron, he was hacking on the elemental code that was constructing the web with Tim Berners-Lee at, I believe he should have been 14. Tons of individuals start out at that age. And the opposite factor is and I feel this goes to the center of what we attempt to discuss on this present is you are modeling the positive future of the web. And it's pushed by folks wanting to build that, wanting to construct that for themselves. Do the youngsters you speak to, do they suppose about this more broadly?
Zach: I think coding is the glue. It is the thing that brings everybody collectively however the magic is in all the why questions. Because Hack Membership's a space where folks ask questions like, who am I? Who do I want to be? What is that this world I reside in? What is my relationship with it? And I believe that we have this concept of hacker pals where if I believe if Hack Club does one thing, we need to try and assist younger folks discover different hacker mates as a result of when you might have someone else such as you, that shares your interest at a very deep stage, it signifies that when you explore these questions, you may go a lot deeper and you feel heard in a means that you simply may not if you do not have mates that are as into a few of these items as you.
Cindy: Hack Membership's not the just one. There are packages like this all around the world that are really particularly aimed toward reaching communities who basically weren't the main focus of sort of the first technology of hacker youngsters. Should you'd discuss that too, I'd like it.
Zach: For me rising up and I believe this is built into Hack Club's DNA, I definitely felt like a child of the world or a toddler of the internet as a result of the individuals I was having so many of these formative conversations with online had been from all around the world from all backgrounds. And I think that that's just so incredibly vital.
One among my favourite issues about Hack Membership is since we don't this design a playbook that then everyone runs, each Hack Membership at each school is completely different. And as a result, whenever you go to a Hack Membership in Kerala India, it's dramatically completely different than a Hack Membership in America. It's totally different. It makes more sense for native context.
And in consequence, whenever you stroll into a few of these clubs from all over the world, the local leaders have actually asked, "What makes probably the most sense for me? What makes essentially the most sense for different individuals like me?" And I feel that, significantly in areas where people feel marginalized or they don't see a house for themselves or they don't have function models in the same way that some more conventional folks might have, my hope is that with Hack Membership, that they will build the home that they've all the time been looking for. And I believe that the web allows younger folks to try this in a manner that simply wasn't potential earlier than.
Danny: That is such a cliche, but this is actually the next era. That is the longer term. Do you've any predictions about the way forward for the internet? What are the things that they're building which can be lacking in the existing system?
Zach: We face a few of the most important challenges over the next 50 years that humanity's ever had to reckon with. And I think that we need a era of younger individuals who not only have real laborious abilities, they will truly do something from a builder perspective round these huge challenges but they also have the right mindset and network to assume a bit of bit otherwise.
The mindset is that if there's a problem, what does it take to fix it? It's totally actionable slightly than really feel, we're born with problems and we must deal with these problems. There's nothing that we can do about it. It is a very empowered mindset.
They form of see expertise not as an end in itself but as a software for each single thing needed to build amazing communities in this new world that we reside in.
Cindy: Such a good vision. Let's soar to that future. Minecraft servers What does it appear to be if we get this right? If we unleash all of the Hack Clubbers and the other children who are using know-how and envisioning technologies to construct a better world than the one we now have now. Take us to that world. What does it look like?
Zach: I don't know if this is too large of an concept but I wish to stay in a world the place there's a hacker president. But in more concrete terms, I would like all the progressive, thrilling stuff to be open supply as a result of it means that all of the sudden the people who can interact with it, isn't everybody who can afford to purchase a license to their company however it is every single person that has technical information in your entire world and internet entry. I wish to stay in a world the place the constraints of location, of locale are smaller than ever before.
Cindy: And what I really love about this imaginative and prescient is that it really is about a movement. I think one of many things that distresses me in regards to the tales coming out of the early web is all of them appear to one guy who did one thing. And actually, they're almost all guys and guys of a certain coloration. And I feel that this manner of storytelling, I'm unsure it was really all that true for these of us who lived by it however what I hear you is actually, really doubling down on this concept that it takes a movement, that folks move together and that this kind of single particular person narrative isn't truly the narrative of fine change and that you are working to try to build communities and networks in order that we get past that.
Zach: And I believe that one factor that really helps with that is the open supply movement and the open source community because it implies that if you are coding on real projects, the connection between you and the individual that wrote that line of code is nearer than ever. And you see, wow, initiatives like Ruby on Rails, they weren't built by one particular person. They were built by 2,000 folks. And you see that similar issues with big tasks, like Firefox, large projects like Rust, these are things that take tribes.
Cindy: Yeah. And let's simply double down, we acquired to get those obstacles out of the way. Children want to have the ability to access all the information. They need to be able to right click on their Chromebooks and think about source and all of these things. And the function of that, which seems like humorous little geeky things, it's central to how we get from right here to there.
Danny: Well, thank you so much, Zach. I look ahead to not only seeing what you need to give you in the future however seeing the subsequent 20 years of what these children produce.
Zach: Thanks a lot for having me here. It is such an honor to be ready to join you in this dialog. It's such an honor for Hack Clubbers to have their story and their struggles be part of the dialog and for the work you are doing. Thanks, thank you, thanks, thank you, thank you.
Cindy: It goes both methods, Zach. You're raising the following technology of EFF members, most likely EFF staffers and possibly congressional and administrative staffers who've this of their bones. And that is the world. Just understanding how expertise works isn't sufficient. And I feel that is actually clear from what you are doing is you are building networks and you are constructing moral and responsible frameworks for the way do you be any individual who understands about tech but is utilizing it for good?
Cindy: Zach, thanks so much. This has been so fun talking to you and so inspiring. I agree, we began off and we were speaking about the issues that you're having and so they're tremendously vital. And naturally that's the place EFF's rubber meets the street is trying to get these obstacles out of the way in which. But we ended in such a cheerful place when it comes to this future. So thanks.
Cindy: I so respect listening to about optimistic, younger folks finding, utilizing and building the tools to make issues higher and the position that the web is enjoying in each helping them join, and helping them really build this into a motion that goes to build the instruments which might be going to make a greater internet in the future.
Danny: A lot of this speak of the surveillance and the censorship of children is wrapped this idea of holding them protected. And then Zach who's caught in the center. He goes to the web sites of these makers of filter know-how the place they're literally claiming to be preventing school shootings and but all of us need kids to be safe however I do query whether or not this is really safety when Zack talks to the precise Hack Clubbers and they say that they really feel like they're in an Orwellian surveillance state, that's not safety.
Cindy: No, no. And I believe faculty administrators, it is just clear that they are outgunned right here and we'd like to actually assist them in recognizing what children really must develop. I additionally actually appreciated him speaking about coding as a form of self expression. Obviously that's near and expensive to my coronary heart as EFF started with the concept code is speech but additionally that this self expression isn't just in a constitutional sense. It's about a spot the place I could be myself, where I can really be the true me and all of that coming out of the idea that people are studying how to code, this as a technique of self expression it's simply heartening.
Danny: You teach youngsters how to precise themselves, whether it's code and talking up after which they get to be part of that debate. And I believe they're an necessary a part of that debate.
Cindy: One of the things that I actually cherished about the way in which Zach talked about the community he is constructing is it's being constructed by teenagers for teenagers, maybe for the rest of us too. However recognizing that this group needs to be designing the technologies and growing the technologies that this group wants. That where it needs to be centered. It jogs my memory of the conversation we had with Matt Mitchell, the place he talked about communities needing to construct the instruments that they need, whether they're in, where he was in Harlem or in a rural area or somewhere around the world. This neighborhood empowerment works not only in geography but additionally in the distinction between being a child and being an grownup.
Cindy: Properly, due to our guest, Zach Latta, for sharing his optimism and the work that he is doing. If you would like to start out a Hack Club or donate to help support them, they are at hackclub.com. There are related organizations all across the nation and all the world over. However supporting this work, I think is tremendously important to build a future web that we all wish to dwell in.
Danny: Thanks once more, for joining us. When you've got any feedback on this episode, do e mail us at [email protected] We read each email and we be taught from all your feedback. If you happen to do like what you hear, follow us on your favourite podcast player. We have received heaps more episodes in retailer this season. Nat Keefe and Reed Mathis at Beat Mower made the music for this podcast with additional music and sounds used underneath the creative commons license from CCMixter. You can find the credits for each of the musicians and links to the music in our episode notes. How to repair the Internet is supported by the Alfred P. Sloan Basis's program in the public understanding of science and technology. I'm Danny O'Brien.
Music for how to repair the Internet was created for us by Reed Mathis and Nat Keefe of BeatMower. This podcast is licensed Inventive Commons Attribution 4.Zero Worldwide, and contains music licensed Inventive Commons Attribution 3.0 Unported by their creators. You will discover their names and hyperlinks to their music in our episode notes, or on our web site at eff.org/podcast. I’m Danny O’Brien.
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